He has the burden of proving that the dogmas contradict scripture. 18. Instead, they describe Ezra bringing scrolls to Jerusalem and a process of later works being written that gradually developed into what they call a relatively complete Jewish Bible. But they also acknowledge some Jews accepted the deuterocanonicals as Scripture and that many Christian communities embraced these works as part of the Bible.. . Even if Mary were speaking of salvation from sin, she may be speaking about God, preventing her from sinning and saving her in that way, like we might say how a doctor saved someone from a disease by vaccinating them, rather than by giving them a pill to cure them after the infection. The Greek grammarian Bill Mounce, who writes a whole textbook on Ancient Greek, says that adelphi means, sister, near kinswoman, or female relative. When it comes to [Greek 00:39:49], I already showed that both in the Septuagint and also in contemporary literature, it does not require a reversal of condition, so it can be used here in Matthew 1:25 in this way. And they talks about how they offered cakes on alters to Mary. Christie requested his release from Jacksonville after a week in camp hoping to retire, but signed with the New York Giants a day later, playing what would be his final NFL season. But even St. Louis de Montfort who uses very lofty language of Mary says of her that she is but one Adam in comparison to the infinite and majestic glory that is God. He says in Philippians 3:7 that whatever gain he had as a Pharisee he counted as loss for the sake of Christ. In Galatians 1:13 he calls his Jewish zealotry a former way of life, and in 1 Corinthians 9:20 Paul explicitly says he was not under the Mosaic law, which was a non-negotiable belief for the Pharisees. Check out our newest Lake Effect team. Two individuals share the same biological mother and father? So lets just stick to scripture. Yeah, no, Steve, if you want to give me the links to those over email, Ill be sure to put them in the description below so people can easily find them. Something went wrong with your request. These would be children from his previous marriage, making them adoptive brothers and sisters, and as such, they would be fully Jesuss brother and sister, the full use of the word adelphos. We see this in Psalm 69:25. Okay, Trent. Many of you know I now have a Catholic Lo-Fi channel. But were not debating whether the Bible teaches the immaculate conception. There are a lot of great resources at catholic.com. Christian authors, however, never present a list of inspired books written before the time of Christ that matches the Protestant Old Testament canon. Okay. Yeah. So lets take a look at them. Now, does the Bible teach that everyone has sinned? He would end up playing two years for the Buccaneers. The second man Christ is from heaven as is the earthy Adam so also are those who are earthy and as is the heavenly Christ so also are those who are heavenly. The 33-yard field goal came with just :35 to play, giving the Bills a win over the Titans, who had knocked them out of the playoffs the year before. I already addressed Psalm 65, but Steve said, Well, the sins were applied to Jesus in a non-literal way. Right, but notice what it says in Psalm 69:5 of the Messiah, Oh God, thou knowest my folly. His father was a drummer during the Big Band Era and played with the likes of Tommy Dorsey and Artie . Because I know every one of these points you could go back and forth on a lot, but lets try to keep it to just the main response and then a response to the response. This question comes from agoyforJesus. Why Is the Protestant Bible Shorter than the Catholic Bible? For example, we could ask the question were the apostles baptized? You talked a little about in Adam, all die, but notice here there are exceptions. So before she could go into heaven and have a heavenly body, she had to be rid of them, and thats why the apostle Paul says that we were like Adam and we also, which includes Mary, we also are heavenly. I know not man. Its the same Greek words that Mary says when she says, I know not man.. Do you still have it? And my contention is that if Adam had not fallen and inherited original sin, he would not have died. I will click the four-minute mark. Steve Christie also has his own website. 17. That sums it up. I think it provides strong evidence for it. Im trying to appeal to Catholic guilt, but its not working. Marys special, unique status and her being mother of God is something throughout the fathers, definitely. Being sinful is saying that you have inherited original sin and becoming sin means that sin was imputed to you. When Mary declared God, my savior. In Luke 1:47, she understood that Jesus was the savior to grant repentance and forgiveness of sins, in Acts 5:31 and in Titus 2:9-11, which included her own. Gov. (Horn V. Christie) About Ap315: The mission of Apologetics 315 is to provide educational resources for the defense of the Christian faith, with the goal of strengthening the faith of believers and engaging the questions and challenges of other worldviews. He did exactly what Jesus did. And Id like my little mini rebuttal, very quick points, Matt, that is a topic for another debate. You can get both of those on Amazon. However, he should have cited what Jimmy said immediately before that quote: It wasnt entirely clear to every group of Jews exactly what books belonged in the Old Testament., Akin goes on to write that Jesus and the apostles went a bit further than the Pharisees on the issue of the canon. The 34-yard field goal came with just :03 seconds to play, lifting the Bills to 4-4 on the season. General Discussion (Forum) Main. Those that have been infallibly defined to be part of divine revelation. Weve got lots of great content that comes out weekly more seriously, and you dont want to miss it, so click subscribe. So the idea that its fitting that Mary be immaculately conceived, it pushes the dial a little, but its by no means a proof. But its still the first movie. I would love to have Augustine or Aquinas come down to my parish and give a talk or be a pastor there. Thats just how debates work. So I would definitely encourage people who are willing to explore the churchs teachings about Mary more. Yeah. This was the view that St. Augustine said, when he said that in Psalm 69:5, the mother is not married, but Israel and the brethren are the other sons of Israel who spurn him. Adelphos is not my issue. This is make or break time. After chemotherapy and radiation treatments in Buffalo, he underwent two successful surgeries at the Cleveland Clinic in Cleveland, Ohio. One of these would be Psalm 69, where it says of the Messiah, I have become a stranger to my brethren, an alien to my mothers sons. The messianic Psalms are applied to Jesus, but not in literal ways. Reply to this thread. And another is a partial contradiction, such as the dogma of Jehovahs Witnesses on the identity of Jesus. After all Ive done for you, and you just sit there, you watch this, you dont click that thumbs up button. He is the host of the popular, award-winning film series on salvation history, . Oh, absolutely. Even a son of Mary would be interesting, rather its the fact that Jesus was referred through a metronym rather than a patronym, that normally in the ancient near east, you would refer to someone as the son of their father, the son of Joseph.. As Trent Horn shared with Matt Fradd on Sips with Aquinas Ooh. Dr. Steven Christie, MD is a Diagnostic Radiology Specialist in Miami, FL and has over 28 years of experience in the medical field. In 2004, Christie was signed by the Jacksonville Jaguars to put some pressure on struggling rookie Josh Scobee. Those are both problematic. Alright what about the Immaculate Conception? Agreed. We receive no funding from the institutional Church and rely entirely on your generosity to sustain this website with trustworthy, accessible content. Steve, you are going to be beginning with 15 minutes. Use features like bookmarks, note taking and highlighting while reading WHY PROTESTANT BIBLES ARE SMALLER: A Defense of the Protestant Old Testament Canon. And as Jimmy Akin has pointed out, if Mary needed to be sinless in order to give birth to the Messiah, then her mother would have to be sinless and her mother would have to be sinless all the way back to Eve and so it doesnt work. I only have to prove there is no contradiction. More on that in a moment. Because as Steve agreed with me in this debate, the Greek word adelphos can mean adoptive sibling or half sibling. The Bible doesnt say that apostles are baptized, but it certainly seems quite fitting that they would be given everything else. What you ended up finding also from this, as well as other dogmas, when you go back to it, you find a lot of these dogmas originating in apocalyptic literature. Steve Christie joins me this week to discuss how he got started in apologetics and why it is important. Did they believe Marys Well were out of time, so [inaudible 01:16:57]. Okay. We ought to do it. Well, of course not. St. Jerome, who was skeptical of the manuscript history behind these books, even tells us that at the Council of Nicaea the deuterocanonical work of Judith was considered part of the canon of Scripture. What am I to do with this? The word paraphrase very frequently provides adequate description of the relationship (Introducing the Apocrypha, 22). And again, in Sirach chapter 18, I think its verse 17 in the Septuagint uses this same Greek word, but in the masculine to refer to man being full of grace as [inaudible 01:21:46] and obviously Trent and I would agree that it doesnt mean that way. So just a historical note for everybody watching. Christie eventually got cut on October 4. Okay. A lot of mouthful, but thats what links are for. Sounds like youre posing the question to you, Steve. GANYARD: It sure is, George. He says, this is a question for Steve. My first book is about not really of us, why do children of Christian parents abandon the faith? When early followers of Jesus began to focus their adoration on Mary, rather than on Christ alone, Jesus responded, Rather blessed are those who hear the word of God and observe it. Thank you. But the only thing we should offer on an altar is the body and blood of Jesus Christ, the lamb of God that he has given to us at Calvary. First, Christies argument for the Pharisees canon being identical to modern Protestant Old Testament comes from a selective quotation from my colleague Jimmy Akin. (Hebrews 11:35b, 2 Maccabees 6,7), Is the Apocrypha or Deutero-Canonical Books Part of the Bible? The Protestant biblical scholar, Victor Hamilton, says, To say that Jesus is Marys prototokos is simply to say Mary had no child before she gave birth to Jesus. This is a term that refers to the child who opens the womb, and it makes sense that Luke would use prototokos because the term, firstborn, is later used in Luke 2:22 through 23 to talk about the purification rite and rite of presenting those who are the firstborn. But let me get to that point about death though. Does the Authorial Model have a Fictitious Problem? It says here that Jesus is the firstborn, prototokos, of Mary. If anything like the parents hes a good kid, but I cant imagine by the age of seven that his oldest child hasnt sinned one time. So youre going to agree it does not deny Mary was assumed into heaven? As 1 Timothy 3:15 says, the pillar and foundation of truth. So thats all up there as well. You mean the son of John? Yeah. And we know this because this is explicitly stated in scripture. All right. (Horn V. Christie). Christie claims the Hebrew canon was closed by Ezra and other learned men at an event called the Great Synagogue. Morgan Stanley Wealth Management 631-755-8843. Chris Christie is one of six Catholics among the 17 candidates running for the Republican nomination in the crowded 2016 presidential race. While the wages of sin is death refers to spiritual death, that is the second death. Anything else you might disagree with? Anyone who denies this dogma automatically contradicts scripture because if Jesus is God and Mary is the mother of Jesus. So does this mean that James was Zebedees only son? I mean, I have to really think about that. When the Bible talks about all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, as I mentioned in my opening statement, its a Greek word pas, which means, everyone, which would include Mary. So if the Bible taught that every human Im sorry that every woman gave birth to children or that every person without exception commits personal sins or that no one has ever been assumed into heaven, then the dogmas would be falsified. In Not Really Of Us, author and former skeptic, Steve Christie, examines specific reasons why your child abandoned the Christian faith. It would be an evidence chip, if you will, for it that we have to balance with other evidences. And again, just to give an example in the Septuagint, in the Book of Sirach, which is inspired for Trent, but its not inspired for me, it uses the Greek word [Greek 00:47:52], which is a masculine form of [Greek 00:47:55] when it says, Hail Mary, full of grace. And its used to describe a man who is full of grace. And I would also address that Luke actually specifically states that it is a salutation. As long the difference between Mariological title versus Christological title, thats probably where we would disagree, but go ahead. And I would say the same applies to Mary, were just having different views about what counts as divine revelation. So Im well aware of that. Of the 336 field goals Steve Christie kicked during his 15-year National Football League career, none was more important than the one he booted in overtime on Jan. 3, 1993, at the stadium then known as Rich. A Response to Pastor Chip Thornton's Anti-Catholic Newspaper Article. . So it is quite shocking. And so moving from that, that if Jesus Christ did establish the church, if Im confident of that and in its teaching authority, then I can be confident in what the Pope teaches about Mary in regards to those two dogmas but I can especially have confidence knowing that what is taught does not contradict scripture. As a matter of fact, if you want to, immediately after this debate, I made two videos. Good day, Trent. One other point that I would raise is that other arguments that Protestants use to try to show that Jesus had brothers simply dont work. Thanks for correcting me on that, Trent. In order to justify that claim, Christie would have to present a standard that tells us what writings prior to Christ are inspired and why we should accept that particular standard. . It is fitting, therefore its true. Please click that. So Steve would probably say that, Well, Jesus has sins, but there our sins, not his sins. Okay. Im just asking is there an example of anywhere in scripture where its used to describe siblings they have the same mother but they have different fathers? This sure is fun, isnt it? He was preceded in death by both his parents. Verse eighteen describes the enemies of the righteous one, saying, If the righteous one is the son of God, God will help him and deliver him from the hand of his foes, which parallels the Jewish authorities taunts during Jesus crucifixion recorded in Matthew 27:43: He trusts in God; let God deliver him now, if he desires him; for he said, I am the Son of God.. I would say the church subsist in the Catholic church though other non-Catholic Christians have an imperfect communion with the church. For example, although Josephus seems to defend what is equivalent to the Protestant canon, scholars recog-nize his propensity for exaggeration. In 2001, Butler signed Christie on November 28, to replace Wade Richey who was demoted after struggling on field goals. Okay. While Jesus was conceived by the holy spirit, the Psalmists wrote, In sin, my mother conceived me. Echoed later by the apostle Paul all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. The Greek word translated all [foreign language 00:08:51] translated everyone, which includes Mary in her conception, but obviously not Jesus since scripture explicitly states, Jesus was without sin. They shall mourn for him as one mourns for an only child and weep bitterly over him as one weeps over a firstborn. So the terms can both be used in interchangeably in that respect. We believe all Christian's should be able to defend their faith in God & Jesus of Nazareth. My screen name is BornAgainRN, so you can look at me that way. The Greek word translated until does not exclude normal marital conduct after Jesus birth. Okay, you can start now. The Buffalo Bills officially signed Christie to a one-day contract, thus to retire as a Buffalo Bill. And at basic, psalms 69, if you continue reading, it says that the Messiah was taking on the reproach of other people. Things like whether shes Mediatrix or Co-Redemprtix. Jude 9 talks about the archangel, Michael, contending with the devil disputing about the body of Moses and taking the body of Moses, the dead body of Moses, that being assumed into heaven. I do talk about this in my book and there, I note that its used differently than in Sirach 18:17, where the word is also used in those situations. In fact, the Bible often speaks about things like human sinfulness or human mortality as a universal truth and those things really are universal, but it doesnt always mention the exceptions that do occur to these universal rules. Why would that be the case? It is a matter of which authority are you willing to submit to. Its a very beautiful open community and you get free daily podcasts and I think youd really enjoy it. I dont know if I would. Yeah. Geoffrey Stephen Christie (born November 13, 1967) [1] is a former Canadian American football placekicker in the National Football League (NFL), who, as a member of the Buffalo Bills, became known for his ability to kick clutch field goals, even in poor weather. Kelly said, for the great majority of the early Church Fathers, the deuterocanonical writings ranked as Scripture in the fullest sense (Early Christian Doctrines, 55). Steve, where can people learn more about you and the good stuff youve done? Certainly they were baptized Catholics, but they opposed whatever they thought the church taught that contradicted sacred Scripture in a wide variety of doctrines, except they didnt contradict on Mary being the mother of God or her being ever Virgin. Maybe a little too much. If she was immaculately conceived, she would not have bodily assumed needed to be rescued from death because thats the purpose of assumption, which we see from Enoch and Elijah. The importance of discussing these Marian dogma is more than merely to debate them. I dont know how you would feel. So then if Jesus was referred to as the carpenters son, and its a patronym, would this eliminate his brothers being older stepbrothers, according to the Protoevangelium of James? Christian apologist accused of denying fundamental truths. Did some Jews during this time recognize the inspiration of these texts? So Im going to ask the question again and see if youll answer it. And the other concern, again, that I have is from Lumen Gentium, which is a Dogmatic Constitution of the Church, that it is binding to Catholics that even if a Roman pontiff does not speak ex cathedra, it is binding. No. After completing several real estate transactions, Stephen discovered that the agents' work ethics . We are going to be moving into a time of cross-examination where each debater will get 10 minutes each. Other doctors like Ambrose, Augustine, Irenaeus and others in the early church, like Tertullian, Origen, Hillary of Portier, and seven popes believed Mary was either conceived in sin or committed acts of personal sin, including Thomas Aquinas, as late as the 13th century. Well start with you, Steve. I dont know if I could answer the question definitively. So my question for you then would be what are some objections you hear from Protestants that when you hear them, you think, Oh goodness, you dont even understand the Catholic position. So starting with Trent. Debate: Do Protestants Have the Correct Old Testament Canon? Heres my thought on that. This is not the rule. Yes, and Christie admits they did, though he thinks we can discern which Jews had the correct canon of Scripture. I just think, Well, yeah, Id also want to make my foster father perfect. And Steve, stick around because Ive got one final question for both of you, but I wanted to say two things before I do that. 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